Sender | Message | Time |
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25 Aug 2019 | ||
@reimuserro8:matrix.org joined the room. | 10:15:02 | |
@reimuserro8:matrix.org left the room. | 10:15:12 | |
27 Aug 2019 | ||
bridge-bot | <jose.angel.mendez>Hi, what will be the easiest way to upload a document as proof of existence belonging to an Aragon DAO? | 15:38:43 |
28 Aug 2019 | ||
bridge-bot | <light>really interesting chain analysis in this thread. shows the benefits and downsides to transparent blockchains in governance: https://twitter.com/DegenSpartan/status/1166278374035091456 | 14:28:00 |
bridge-bot | <light>another interesting take: “Interpreting that 40% discount quite literally, we could say (very simplified) the market believes 40% of DAO efforts have 0 benefit to tokenholders.” https://twitter.com/ASvanevik/status/1166578959674478592 | 14:47:15 |
bridge-bot | <light>quite a reductionist argument. a price is an amalgamation of many signals and preferences in the market e.g. “the market has decided it finds better opportunities elsewhere” is likely a more valid argument since there’s no logical reason for the price of these tokens to have any sort of relationship to AUM. | 14:49:49 |
bridge-bot | <aaron> @light | 15:27:25 |
bridge-bot | <aaron> @light I was going to post this thread here. | 16:02:43 |
bridge-bot | <aaron> @light | 18:06:31 |
bridge-bot | <aaron> @light I was going to post this earlier. For me the biggest take away was not NAV, but how the large token holders tried to obfuscate their voting and how much influence they had. | 18:10:08 |
bridge-bot | <aaron>We as a community haven’t had a vote with such high stakes as this before, but in the future when we start to see a lot more adoption and revenue coming in we will. Our community is much more transparent but we do have some work to do on information asymmetry | 18:14:22 |
bridge-bot | <jcharlesworth>Impressive chain analysis! On a tangential note, have you seen any good workflows for helping people that create DAOs on Aragon to fully cover their tracks? Given that a lot of legal advisors at the moment seem to think the buck will often stop with the DAO creators, how might a DAO creator fully cover their tracks when creating the DAO? Are there best practices to follow for this? | 20:53:47 |
bridge-bot | <light> @jcharlesworth I posted about it recently, see: https://aragon.chat/channel/general?msg=KKchBS52j6g8SrEQM | 22:27:36 |
bridge-bot | <light>there is now tornado.cash but still this tool is immature and still presents many opportunities for users to shoot themselves (and other users) in the foot, which I’ve pointed out in my review here: https://aragon.chat/channel/general?msg=KKchBS52j6g8SrEQM | 22:28:55 |
bridge-bot | <light>there is now tornado.cash but still this tool is immature and still presents many opportunities for users to shoot themselves (and other users) in the foot, which I’ve pointed out in my review here: https://lightco.in/2019/08/07/tornado-review/ | 22:29:06 |
bridge-bot | <light>there is now tornado.cash but still this tool is immature and still presents many opportunities for users to shoot themselves (and other users) in the foot, which I’ve pointed out in my review here: https://lightco.in/2019/08/07/tornado-review/ | 22:29:18 |
3 Sep 2019 | ||
bridge-bot | <light>Interesting discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/comments/csia9r/makerdao_looking_for_governance/ | 14:02:05 |
6 Sep 2019 | ||
bridge-bot | <aaron>Governance panel with @jorge from Berlin https://youtu.be/Pk6G_AD0kSo | 12:54:20 |
14 Sep 2019 | ||
bridge-bot | <ruby>Hey guys, a quick question. I’m reading the whitepaper and have some questions about the dispute part. it is indicated that " if a minority of the DAO stakeholders think the submitted proposal has violated the proposal agreement terms then they can choose to raise a dispute. When they raise a dispute they will need to deposit an equivalent amount of collateral, along with initial dispute fees as determined by the Aragon Court" . Have two questions here:
| 08:50:11 |
bridge-bot | <ruby>And also, it is indicated that if the result of dispute runs in favor of the disputers, the collateral of the proposal will be transferred to the disputer, does it mean that the original proposer need to send the original budget back to the DAO or to the disputers? If the budget were to some the disputers, will there be any risk that disputers will gain additional benefit in raising a dispute and they will intendly raise as much as dispute as possbile? | 08:53:03 |
bridge-bot | <aaron>Hey @ruby so the proposal agreement is determined by all parties before they accept to interact. This could be a vote by the organisation to create some bylaws or manifesto, or could be a specific agreement with a contractor. For example the dao can have some bylaws saying “we will not pay for exchange listings of our token”. If someone decides to buy a bunch of tokens in our DAO and makes a proposal to do that. Even if they hold more than 51% of the tokens, any token holder can then raise a dispute and stop the vote executing.
A more serious example is when the same thing happens but instead of a token listing, an attacker can make a vote to transfer all the vault to their own address this is the primary motivation of the court
Not sure what you mean here. But all agreements are fully collateralized. Meaning you can only loose what you have staked. If you make a proposal and stake funds towards it, you can only loose that. A DAO cannot compel you so send it anymore than that As for the amount of collateral @jorge @facuspagnuolo would be best to answer that. Hope that helps | 20:48:05 |
15 Sep 2019 | ||
bridge-bot | <ruby>Thanks a lot @aaron, it does help a lot on the proposal agreement part. Just further clarify on the collateral question. Think I might be still lost in the proposal process here, as currently I have built a DAO on Aragon and when I make a proposal, it does not require any collateral, so just wanna make for clear about the proposal process:
| 08:32:04 |
bridge-bot | <ruby>sorry for intensive question | 08:32:08 |
bridge-bot | <ruby>And here is the issue I raised about the “intention dispute”, if the disputer will receive the collateral of the original proposer, he /she might be incentived to raise dispute even the proposal has not fully broken the " proposal agreement" | 08:38:10 |
bridge-bot | <ruby>Cause he/she might have the possibility to get additional benefit, which is the proposer’s original collateral, not sure if my understanding is correct | 08:38:43 |
bridge-bot | <aaron>@ruby
Ok let me try and unpack it a bit with a disclaimer that I’m not an expert on this and I haven’t looked at the current spec
This would be up to the DAO and how it is configured. If you have the permissions set up such that anyone can request funds via voting then it makes sense for the DAO to require a deposit for each proposal (this is not an option right now with the current apps on the main net). The reason being the DAO is vulnerable to a spam attack where an attacker can flood the DAO with proposals hoping one of them sneak through. In the case where the proposer challenges a no vote. For example, if it was a request for payment for services rendered and they did the work they were tasked with. then they would receive the deposit back and the requested funds and possibly a portion of the DAOs deposit (don’t quote me on the last one) However, if they lose they will lose their deposit. It’s worth noting, they would never have had the funds applied for as it would be locked by the court If you have the permissions set up such that only token holders in the DAO can request funds from the vault via voting, then it probably wouldn’t need to require depositing collateral as if a token holder is acting maliciously the DAO can vote to burn its tokens. Again this could trigger a dispute at which point both parties would have to deposit collateral with the looser getting slashed
You are never incentivised to raise malicious disputes. Yes the disputer may get some of the deposit of the other party but if the court functions correctly they will, in fact, lose money That’s kind of a long answer but to your first question on how much must be staked to raise a dispute in the court. I’m not sure | 09:24:13 |
bridge-bot | <aaron>@ruby
Ok let me try and unpack it a bit with a disclaimer that I’m not an expert on this and I haven’t looked at the current spec
This would be up to the DAO and how it is configured. If you have the permissions set up such that anyone can request funds via voting then it makes sense for the DAO to require a deposit for each proposal (this is not an option right now with the current apps on the main net). The reason being the DAO is vulnerable to a spam attack where an attacker can flood the DAO with proposals hoping one of them sneak through. In the case where the proposer challenges a no vote. For example, if it was a request for payment for services rendered and they did the work they were tasked with. then they would receive the deposit back and the requested funds and possibly a portion of the DAOs deposit (don’t quote me on the last one) However, if they lose they will lose their deposit. It’s worth noting, they would never have had the funds applied for as it would be locked by the court If you have the permissions set up such that only token holders in the DAO can request funds from the vault via voting, then it probably wouldn’t need to require depositing collateral as if a token holder is acting maliciously the DAO can vote to burn its tokens. Again this could trigger a dispute at which point both parties would have to deposit collateral with the looser getting slashed
You are never incentivised to raise malicious disputes. Yes the disputer may get some of the deposit of the other party but if the court functions correctly they will, in fact, lose money That’s kind of a long answer but to your first question on how much must be staked to raise a dispute in the court. I’m not sure | 09:24:52 |
bridge-bot | <aaron>@ruby
Ok let me try and unpack it a bit with a disclaimer that I’m not an expert on this and I haven’t looked at the current spec
This would be up to the DAO and how it is configured. If you have the permissions set up such that anyone can request funds via voting then it makes sense for the DAO to require a deposit for each proposal (this is not an option right now with the current apps on the main net). The reason being the DAO is vulnerable to a spam attack where an attacker can flood the DAO with proposals hoping one of them sneak through. In the case where the proposer challenges a no vote. For example, if it was a request for payment for services rendered and they did the work they were tasked with. then they would receive the deposit back and the requested funds and possibly a portion of the DAOs deposit (don’t quote me on the last one) However, if they lose they will lose their deposit. It’s worth noting, they would never have had the funds applied for as it would be locked by the court If you have the permissions set up such that only token holders in the DAO can request funds from the vault via voting, then it probably wouldn’t need to require depositing collateral as if a token holder is acting maliciously the DAO can vote to burn its tokens. Again this could trigger a dispute at which point both parties would have to deposit collateral with the looser getting slashed
You are never incentivised to raise malicious disputes. Yes the disputer may get some of the deposit of the other party but if the court functions correctly they will, in fact, lose money That’s kind of a long answer but to your first question on how much must be staked to raise a dispute in the court. I’m not sure | 09:25:28 |
bridge-bot | <ruby>Understood, thanks a lot for the detailed answer. I was reading the whitepaper, so got some questions on this part, seems that we still need to run more senarios to test how this mechanism may function, to me, this mechanism may still have risk for the disputer to act maliciously, as the returns seems be larger than the cost even with the dispute court | 09:42:15 |
bridge-bot | <ruby>As per my understanding, the court will be consist of junors that are mainly ANT holders that staked their ANTs into the court smart contract | 09:42:55 |