!sOLQNHloevPHIEWcYN:matrix.org

Secure Messaging Apps (SecuChart)

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bkil.gitlab.io/secuchart t.me/securemessagingapps matrix.org/legal/code-of-conduct (!modhelp to ping mods) Contributions welcome! Discussion on secure messenger apps, security and privacy. Post off-topic in #messaging-offtopic:matrix.org Prefer #p2p-messengers:matrix.org peer-to-peer (Secure Scuttlebutt, RetroShare, Jami, Tox, Briar, Cabal, Cwtch, Session, Tinfoil Chat, Freenet, I2P, Twister, GNUnet Chat, OnionShare, Berty), federated (Matrix, SIP/SIMPLE, XMPP, Conversations, Gajim, Pidgin, Movim, Rocket.Chat, Delta Chat, GnuPG, Status.im), planned federated (NextCloud Talk, Wire) or centralized (CryptoDog, Signal, Mumble, Mattermost, Jitsi, Zulip) instead of closed server (Threema, Keybase, Telegram) or proprietary (WhatsApp, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, FaceTime, Zoom, Google Hangouts/Meet, Viber, WeChat, Wickr, Olvid, ICQ, SOMA, Discord, Hushed, Beeper, Skype, FireChat, Kik, Line, Silent Phone, Slack, Tencent QQ, Trillian, TeamSpeak, Ventrilo, HipChat) or outmoded (IRC, Jabber, Cryptocat, Ricochet, Bitmessage, Serval Project).163 Servers

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20 Mar 2023
@trajanus:matrix.orgtrajanusIMO...the best COTS solution available at this time for a privacy respecting phone is GrapheneOS running whatever secure messaging/voice apps meet your threat profile.16:30:58
@ph00lt0:matrix.orgph00lt0
In reply to @trajanus:matrix.org
If Silent Phone is from Silent Circle, I believe it's both proprietary and pricey.
It isn't
16:58:16
@trajanus:matrix.orgtrajanusLink please...16:58:49
@ph00lt0:matrix.orgph00lt0Only endorsed (paid campaign)16:58:57
@ph00lt0:matrix.orgph00lt0Solt and produced by different company16:59:12
@ph00lt0:matrix.orgph00lt0Anyway runs on old hardware old android16:59:25
@ph00lt0:matrix.orgph00lt0Nowhere as secure16:59:34
@omoly:matrix.org@omoly:matrix.orggood point. more accurately, securtiy is a wall from the eventuality. ado18:36:33
@omoly:matrix.org@omoly:matrix.org left the room.18:36:51
@hypokeimenon:tchncs.depaciento 🏳️‍🌈 bkil: do you remember your post about trustworthy hardware and mechanically simplistic computers? do you happen to have a link back to that post? 20:10:48
@bkil:matrix.orgbkilI have a few of those? Which one? 😉 The one about bugged motherboards, cheap MCU, opencores, LibreBoot, CPUs whose patents had expired, how to make transistors at home, the chain linked mechanical Turing machine.20:13:45
@bkil:matrix.orgbkilThen there was also the transistor-level, reverse engineered legacy CPUs and the table sized CPU.20:14:24
@hypokeimenon:tchncs.depaciento 🏳️‍🌈maybe chain linked mechanical turing machine20:14:29
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil * Then there was also the transistor-level reverse engineered legacy CPUs and the table sized CPU.20:14:31
@hypokeimenon:tchncs.depaciento 🏳️‍🌈The conversation in general was about trustworthiness through reduced complexity though iirc20:15:11
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil
In reply to @bkil:grin.hu

Here is the state of the art in what actually makes sense from a security review and reproducible perspective:

  • https://hackaday.com/2018/03/08/mechanical-wooden-turing-machine/ MECHANICAL WOODEN TURING MACHINE
  • https://hackaday.com/2012/07/09/make-your-own-integrated-circuits-at-home/ https://github.com/homecmos/ MAKE YOUR OWN INTEGRATED CIRCUITS AT HOME
  • https://hackaday.io/project/58287-bipolar-dudes/log/152191-diy-alloy-junction-bipolar-transistors https://web.archive.org/web/20201128135017/https://bootlicker.party/manifesto-for-communist-technology-use/ DIY Alloy-Junction Bipolar Transistors A project log for Bipolar dudes
  • https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Build-an-8-Bit-Computer/ How to Build an 8-Bit Computer from TTL (LDA, ADD, OUT, JMP)
  • https://hackaday.com/2010/05/13/transistor-fabrication-so-simple-a-child-can-do-it/ Homebrew NMOS Transistor Step by Step - So Easy Even Jeri Can Do It (HCL Hydrofluoric acid, 1000 degree oven)
  • https://hackaday.io/project/11703-microcode-less-ttl-cpu Microcode-less TTL CPU -A discrete-logic CPU that fits on a prototype board, and is able to run complex C programs, all without microcode.
↗️
20:15:12
@hypokeimenon:tchncs.depaciento 🏳️‍🌈thank you20:15:48
@bkil:matrix.orgbkilWas that it?20:16:42
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil

http://class.ece.iastate.edu/tyagi/cpre581/papers/nature12502.pdf

Shulaker, M., Hills, G., Patil, N. et al. Carbon nanotube computer. Nature 501, 526–530 (2013). https://doi.org/10.1038/nature12502
CNT Cedric, 1-bit, SUBNEG (subtract and branch if negative), Turing-complete, one-instruction-set computer
The CNFET computer is composed of 178 CNFET (transistors), runs at 1 kHz, 1-um minimum lithographic feature size
we show a two-bit arithmetic logic unit (composed of 96 CNFETs with a maximum of 15 stages of cascaded logic)

20:16:43
@hypokeimenon:tchncs.depaciento 🏳️‍🌈
In reply to @bkil:matrix.org
Was that it?
yes
20:17:09
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil

Rants translated anew:

  • if you are working on an interesting artistic project far half a year and the only thing you share is a (a few notes)(https://boingboing.net/2018/03/08/0-1-blank.html) a short mute video
  • Takes a bunch of time to prepare the 15 pages of docs, but chooses to share it via the Microsoft cloud that gets lost after 1-2 years. How much would it have cost to upload these few megabytes under his own domain name even if hosted through a gratis third party? Thankfully, someone stole the whole thing and rehosted it in pdf
20:19:48
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil *

Rants translated anew:

  • if you are working on an interesting artistic project for half a year and the only thing you share is a (your notes)(https://boingboing.net/2018/03/08/0-1-blank.html) and a short mute video
  • Goes through a lot of effort to prepare the 15 pages of docs, but chooses to share it via the Microsoft cloud that gets lost after 1-2 years. How much would it have cost to upload these few megabytes under his own domain name even if hosted through a gratis third party? Thankfully, someone stole the whole thing and rehosted it in pdf
20:21:00
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil *

Rants translated anew:

  • if you are working on an interesting artistic project for half a year and the only thing you share is a your notes and a short mute video
  • Goes through a lot of effort to prepare the 15 pages of docs, but chooses to share it via the Microsoft cloud that gets lost after 1-2 years. How much would it have cost to upload these few megabytes under his own domain name even if hosted through a gratis third party? Thankfully, someone stole the whole thing and rehosted it in pdf
20:21:45
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil *

Rants translated anew:

  • if you are working on an interesting artistic project for half a year and the only thing you share is your notes and a short mute video
  • Goes through a lot of effort to prepare the 15 pages of docs, but chooses to share it via the Microsoft cloud that gets lost after 1-2 years. How much would it have cost to upload these few megabytes under his own domain name even if hosted through a gratis third party? Thankfully, someone stole the whole thing and rehosted it in pdf
20:21:55
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil

It would be a neat project to simultaneously design such a steampunk computer with very low computational capabilities but also low build complexity and a set of potentially useful applications for it. I haven't found a good combination for this yet, though. What came to mind is if it had as much logic in microcode as possible and store the microcode in a way that is very easy to construct and maintain by hand. Maybe use the above mechanical Turing computer for a CU and run dozens of them in parallel to increase its computing power as a deployment parameter?

  • https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_slicing
20:28:20
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil *

It would be a neat project to simultaneously design such a steampunk computer with very low computational capabilities but also low build complexity and a set of potentially useful applications for it. I haven't found a good combination for this yet, though. What came to mind is if it had as much logic in microcode as possible and store the microcode in a way that is very easy to construct and maintain by hand. Maybe use the above mechanical Turing computer for a CU and run dozens of them in parallel to increase its computing power as a deployment parameter?

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_slicing
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit-serial_architecture
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-bit_computing
20:28:41
@bkil:matrix.orgbkilMechanical pianos and similarly pin-programmable weaving equipment also serve as an inspiration. The end goal would be to see whether it could output something that could have served some real purpose 200 years ago. They had very advanced clockwork & watch construction techniques as well that could probably construct orders of magnitude higher-speed mechanical designs if it was fabricated to precision and kept lubricated. Portability wouldn't be my main concern, but there is a mechanical sweet spot in size around pocket watches where components are still strong and plausible to construct but are vary fast due to their low momentum and low friction.20:32:26
@bkil:matrix.orgbkil

You may use it for encrypted communication via punched cards mailed in an envelope (or tapes shipped in packages). However, as real time is out of the question in this case, you could usually encode messages manually via a bunch of ciphers already (given a little inconvenience) as had been done by spies. An operator on each end might transcribe semaphore signals to punched tape for processing, though.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station#Suspected_use_for_espionage
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore
20:36:35
@bkil:matrix.orgbkilOr another interesting application might be: is it plausible for a convict (given enough time) to construct a computer from only materials she is allowed to keep in her cell (e.g., pencils, pens, books, pamphlets, toothpicks, ear scoops, matches, string, sewing needles, toilet paper, etc.)? Not sure what the end goal would be, but envision something non-nefarious here. Maybe she would like to contribute patches to some simple procedure of software printed as books, but would like to try the changes out before submitting the diff via snail mail.20:41:42
@cumonher:matrix.org@cumonher:matrix.org left the room.21:26:07

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