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6 Jan 2020
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheiglhttps://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-88-software-tools-for-wikis-beyond-mediawiki-and-its-extensions The talk of Andre Klapper at the Chaos Communication 14:47:42
@darenwelsh:matrix.orgdarenwelshHow about instead of advertising MediaWiki using other software, we "dogfood" and use it for this blog. Certainly we can start by limiting comments or using whatever spam prevention tools exist for Wikipedia. By forcing ourselves to use our own product, we will identify things that require attention. For me, if you're not using MediaWiki, I won't contribute.15:41:35
@dataspects:matrix.orgdataspectsI think in the same direction as Daren and also think that if we do not use MediaWiki then at least tap into a leveraging platform like Medium (e.g. https://medium.com/mediawiki)... Sorry for undigging this idea again.15:52:53
@dataspects:matrix.orgdataspectsThat being said, I am currently heavily involved in tying Semantic MediaWiki into a larger SW/LOD setup, e.g. Apache Jena or DGraph, and would like to contribute an article on this...15:56:32
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheigl Publishing in Medium: Yes of course! It did not forget this. If we have something for it right away, get started. Otherwise I would like to find out who wants to contribute generally and let this grow. As long as we have this small basis of people, time and money, we has to go "von Hölzchen zu Stöckchen" (in English: from sticks to sticks??)16:17:05
@bryandamon:matrix.orgBryan Hilderbrand @richardheigl:matrix.org: Is the Push&Merge blog available yet (even as a skeleton)? Or are there any suggestions for blog structure, tagging, length, etc. we should keep in mind? 16:54:15
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheiglOh this is a very good question. I did not write it yet. :-( But helpfull would be a couple of questions, which such an article could adress: What is this function for? Why was it developed? Who did it? What are advantages? (e.g. in a bullet point list) What is still missing? Are there some specific requirements or dependencies? Formally, I think it would be good if every article has a trailer. Maybe one or more screenshots? I try to write it within the next two weeks and can share it here (in another Riot room) and we can discuss, what we'd like to have. And what we need is a place for short news (links to other sources, announcement of releases ...) - a very good idea by Yaron17:08:51
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheiglAs length: 500 to 600 words are mostly recommended as a minimum.17:30:53
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheigl * Oh this is a very good question. I haven't written the article yet.. :-( But helpfull would be a couple of questions, which such an article could adress: What is this function for? Why was it developed? Who did it? What are advantages? (e.g. in a bullet point list) What is still missing? Are there some specific requirements or dependencies? Formally, I think it would be good if every article has a trailer. Maybe one or more screenshots? I try to write it within the next two weeks and can share it here (in another Riot room) and we can discuss, what we'd like to have. And what we need is a place for short news (links to other sources, announcement of releases ...) - a very good idea by Yaron17:46:50
@revansx:matrix.orgrevansxRegistration is now open for EMWCon 2020 in Sandusky, Ohio -- April 1-3 https://www.eventbrite.com/e/emwcon-spring-2020-tickets-8853683104520:42:16
7 Jan 2020
@samwilson:matrix.orgSam Wilson I'd be interested in helping figure out what's missing for running a MediaWiki-bsaed blog. I feel like we're not missing all that much. 00:33:53
@mglaser:matrix.orgmglaserWe all know it's somehow possible to implement a simulation of a blog, based on MediaWiki. We should keep in mind, though, that MediaWiki is a wiki, not a blog, not a calendar, not a cms, not a chat system. The "eat your own dogfood" argument states that if we use our own software in production, we show confidence in our software and are able to improve it for real life situations. I'd say that is a good approach if we use the software in the intended way, as a wiki. However, if we misuse MediaWiki as a blog, we are just be trying to get good at something MediaWiki is not designed for. So, instead of showcasing the strengths of MediaWiki, we will showcase the weaknesses. I don't think that's what we really want.13:02:43
@darenwelsh:matrix.orgdarenwelsh What, then, is a wiki meant for? Collaborative free text? Is that all? But then why do we have excellent extensions like Cargo and SMW that make MediaWiki able to do amazing structured data things? Should this blog not mention those?
To me, the strength of MediaWiki is its versatility and the ability of non-WMF-developers to do all these things not in the core intention. Otherwise, what would this blog showcase that other wikis cannot do?
Now, I can jive with not wanting to "advertise" that MediaWiki is not as good as WordPress for blogging, for one example. But I think it can be properly done to show how MediaWIki could be used for blogging and also provide so much more.
14:30:30
@hexmode:matrix.orghexmodeI think it would be good to define what you mean when you say "blog" and think about the motivations for one vs the motivation for a wiki since, yes, the mechanics of a blog are there in MW, just as the mechanics of a wiki are available in WordPress. why can't you use WP for your wiki?16:09:03
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheiglI am thrilled that we are bringing together real MediaWiki evangelists here and believe me, so am I. I am always irritating our developers with new ideas and we are constantly expanding the possibilities of what can be done with MediaWiki. But please understand that in this case the tool question does not arise, simply for cost and time reasons. In order to do this we talk about: commenting function (with an administration interface and notifications), a sophisticated spam protection, pingback, the SEO functions until new articles are reported on Google. In addition, scroll and page functions, display of articles by categories / sections, a news function, Matomo connection and more. All these functions must also be tested and maintained. That are in sum easily 20 to 30 developer days. And I'm not even talking about a suitable skin with design and responsive display of images. Again, including the drafts, another 20 days can be quickly estimated. And we want to go online soon with a presentable instance. So, I see your points, but that is simply not possible. Let us please be pragmatic here. And we would have so much ressources I would suggest to spend the time in a draft functionality to get rid of Etherpad and Google Docs, which we normaly use for minutes and other things. ;-)18:01:20
@bryandamon:matrix.orgBryan HilderbrandTo bridge both ideas, it makes sense to "learn from the best" and start with a known solution. I'm not familiar with all the intricacies of a best in class blogging platform, but after using one for a while, I think we could get a feeling for what functionality would need to be added to MW to pull it off. So, perhaps we can start with another platform (WP, Medium, etc.) with the goal of documenting all the features we like and also the things we don't. That seems like a decent way to define the goals/features needed to make/update an extension for MW to suit our needs. Either way, the idea of a MediaWiki blog is brilliant and I'm excited to see it kicked off. Thanks Richard!18:14:49
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheiglThat's IMHO a very good proposal. Let us learn what we really need and what people want to read.19:15:50
8 Jan 2020
@tgr:matrix.orgtgr something I'd really like to look into if I have the time once is using MediaWiki as a blog backend that Wordpress etc. can pull the data from 20:57:27
@tgr:matrix.orgtgrso you get all the history, community review etc features without having to wrangle with MediaWiki's not-really-up-to-the-task presentation layer20:58:08
9 Jan 2020
@sen-sai:matrix.orgCharlyPerhaps I am missing the core of this topic, but in my opinion MW and especially with SMW all the core functions for a blog are already there. Some templates, some widgets and if you really want to go wild, some extenions, and you have a full blown blog system. Or am I missing the point ?19:09:15
@sen-sai:matrix.orgCharly * Perhaps I am missing the core of this topic, but in my opinion MW and especially with SMW all the core functions for a blog are already there. Some templates, some widgets and if you really want to go wild, some more extensions, and you have a full blown blog system. Or am I missing the point ?19:09:44
@sen-sai:matrix.orgCharly * Perhaps I am missing the core of this topic, but in my opinion with MW and especially with SMW you have all the core functions for a blog are already there. Some templates, some widgets and if you really want to go wild, some more extensions, and you have a full blown blog system. Or am I missing the point ?19:10:31
@sen-sai:matrix.orgCharly * Perhaps I am missing the core of this topic, but in my opinion with MW and especially with SMW you have all the core functions for a blog are already there.
Some templates, some widgets and if you really want to go wild, some more extensions, and you have a full blown blog system. Or am I missing the point ? What do you think adsvs ?
19:12:03
@sen-sai:matrix.orgCharly * Perhaps I am missing the core of this topic, but in my opinion with MW and especially with SMW you have all the core functions for a blog already there.
Some templates, some widgets and if you really want to go wild, some more extensions, and you have a full blown blog system. Or am I missing the point ? What do you think adsvs ?
19:14:36
10 Jan 2020
@samwilson:matrix.orgSam WilsonI think it'd definitely be an interesting exercise. Maybe we could set up a demo wiki on toolforge for setting up such a thing? 00:47:17
@samwilson:matrix.orgSam Wilsonpersonally, I don't find wordpress to be all that wonderful. I know everyone says it's good for non-technical users, which is true, but there's lots to be said for writing in a place (i.e. mediawiki) that one is already familiar with.00:49:33
@samwilson:matrix.orgSam WilsonI used to work on a mediawiki intranet, which was mostly about managing ISO9001 docs, but had a little news thing, basically a blog, and it was much easier to have it all within one system than to split it out to a separate WP site.00:55:12
11 Jan 2020
@richardheigl:matrix.orgrichardheiglFor a small intranet solution a blog function in the wiki can be very helpful. We have already made such experiences. And we have also developed a small blog function for BlueSpice. However, the range of features always remains within a manageable scope, but that can often be sufficient and you save yourself an extra blog system. Especially since the integration of Wordpress and MediaWiki is terrible. We once had a customer where we integrated authentication and search. And since Wordpress and MediaWiki change their architectures permanently, regular updates were out of question and every upgrade was a huge effort. So I think it makes sense to offer an integrated blog function for MediaWiki, for example. But it is something else to want to make a public blog out of MedaWiki. I have an example from the other side: There comes a CIO at some point and wants to consolidate his or her IT. So sharepoint will be introduced over two years. Because there you seem to have everything: document management, intranet portal and a little social. And then they say "Sharepoint also has a wiki, why don't you use it, we've just spent so much money on Sharepoint". Everyone here knows that a sharepoint wiki is something completely different than, for example, a MediaWiki pimped with semantic. But that's how they argue. And then we say: Stop, that's not comparable. It depends on what you want to do. And so the discussions within IT product development constantly jump from the idea of either building a suite to packing everything into individual special applications. At present we are again seeing a major trend towards separation towards microservices, towards architectures with many easy-to-maintain containers. At the end of the day, there is always a pragmatic decision for a specific temporary solution: What can I achieve with effort X to time Y for requirement Z? And we product developers always remain the fools, because we have to try to be at the door with exactly the right product at exactly the right time, but we don't know which door will be opened when. 10:13:23
@darenwelsh:matrix.orgdarenwelsh And yet Microsoft continues to make most of the money and MediaWiki is still a niche product. If you want different results you can't keep doing the same thing. MediaWiki needs to evolve (unless you're content with MediaWiki continuing to be a niche product). 18:04:06
@tgr:matrix.orgtgrConfluence makes between $100-200M a year23:19:03

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