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Basis

16 Members
Discussing the Basis project (a decentralized system that enables an economy based on the free association of producers)2 Servers

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6 May 2021
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloIf your ideology says capitalism works and there is no alternative, when capitalism fails, the only way to escape admitting to that is to blame someone07:06:29
@orthecreedence:matrix.organdrewyeah, and there's good historical precedent for that.07:07:10
10 May 2021
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloSomething to consider, Vaush pointed this out and I think it's true, all currencies, crypto or otherwise, are backed up by either some other valuable thing or an institution. If Basis credits are a currency, what backs up their value? https://youtu.be/5BG1Ra9Kvs004:28:46
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloBasis may be radically different than other currencies, if you can even call it a currency, because of how it is destroyed when it is spent. It is much more akin to labor vouchers than any currency we have today.04:30:48
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloWhat is the value backed up by? In theory, the security of the protocol, the strength of the economy utilizing it, and a kind of rarity unlike any other currency.04:33:00
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo It's kind of funny because in a sense, Basis credits sort of do grow on trees - if you can find enough demand for the thing you want to do. 04:34:27
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloAnd yet, there is no inflation because it burns immediately upon spending it, and also because of the at-cost incentive.04:35:36
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo * And yet, there is no inflation because it burns immediately upon spending it, and also because of the at-cost incentive.04:35:49
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloBasis credits are rare and not rare at the same time in that there are always however many the economy needs, but no more than that.04:36:57
@orthecreedence:matrix.organdrew

If Basis credits are a currency, what backs up their value?

I'd say labor power and resource content. But really the currency is backed by the productive power of the network (in labor power, mostly).

It is much more akin to labor vouchers than any currency we have today.

I tend to think of currency as much more general than money. In other words, labor vouchers might even satisfy the "moneyless" requirement of communism, although many would probably disagree.

It's kind of funny because in a sense, Basis credits sort of do grow on trees - if you can find enough demand for the thing you want to do.

Yeah, they pretty much do.

And yet, there is no inflation because it burns immediately upon spending it, and also because of the at-cost incentive.

Right, the goal is to only ever have as much currency in circulation as value that has been created. Credits are almost more like IOUs than anything.

Basis credits are rare and not rare at the same time in that there are always however many the economy needs, but no more than that.

And cool too because in the off-chance there's a billionaire somewhere, it doesn't stop everyone else from getting credits, because we can just print more. Unlike an artificially scarce money system, where a dollar I have is a dollar someone else doesn't have

05:26:52
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloAlso, since that theoretical billionaire doesn't stop other people from having credits, people can just decide not to do business with the billionaire because they don't have to. Their billions aren't worth much if almost no one will let them spend it on anything. Hey wait a minute, that's an incentive against hoarding wealth right there, isn't it?05:56:40
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloIf you hoard too much wealth, everyone will resent you for it, and then they will stop doing business with you because they can, and your wealth will be meaningless.05:58:15
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan PetrangeloTurns out it's a lot easier to boycott a billionaire when you don't depend on their money, lol05:59:05
11 May 2021
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo I think it would be helpful if Basis had more specific answers to the questions in this video
https://youtu.be/IOFXSsbfkH4
05:57:54
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo
  1. How do we decide which businesses are allowed to exist without capital investment?
    Answer: As long as the demand is there, cost allowance is created on the fly to enable production. So we decide according to market demand, aka use value in the Marxian sense.
06:00:30
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo
  1. Is any form of investment allowed? How do businesses raise capital for expansion?
    Answer: Increases in demand produce an increase in cost allowance, thereby facilitating business expansion. Your purchase of a commodity is an investment in that commodity in the sense that you contribute to its continued production.
06:03:17
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo *
  1. Is any form of investment allowed? How do businesses raise capital for expansion?
    Answer: Increases in demand produce an increase in cost allowance, thereby facilitating business expansion. Your purchase of a commodity is an investment in that commodity in the sense that you contribute to its continued production.
06:04:42
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo 2.5 Does the expansion of a business dilute an individual worker’s control?
Answer: Yes and no. Their control over the business as a whole is diluted, but they still maintain a significant amount of control in the parts of the business that they interact with directly, e.g. who their manager is and how exactly to divvy up the work. All of that being said, if a respectful environment is maintained in which people can discuss business decisions, the ideas that the most workers like will naturally develop a consensus around them, so even with diluted direct control, a worker with a good idea and good presentation skills can still have a significant impact on the final decision.
06:07:40
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo * 2.5 Does the expansion of a business dilute an individual worker’s control?
Answer: Yes and no. Their control over the business as a whole is diluted, but they still maintain a significant amount of control in the parts of the business that they interact with directly, e.g. who their manager is and how exactly to divvy up the work.
06:08:50
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo
  1. How are labor markets determined? What if everyone wants to become a teacher? What incentive would anyone have to pursuit a socially necessary job that they do not wish to pursuit?
    Answer: A socially necessary job is going to have a guaranteed high cost allowance, and if the supply of willing workers is low, then traditional market forces will cause the wages to increase until there are enough workers to fill those jobs.
06:14:46
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo *
  1. How are labor markets determined? What if everyone wants to become a teacher? What incentive would anyone have to pursuit a socially necessary job that they do not wish to pursuit?
    Answer: A socially necessary job is going to have a guaranteed high cost allowance, and if the supply of willing workers is low, then traditional market forces will cause the wages to increase until there are enough workers to fill those jobs.
06:15:04
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo Potential further question: What if the pay required to incentivize the necessary work exceeds the cost allowance as dictated by demand?
Answer: If there is in fact not a high enough cost allowance, then perhaps this job is not actually socially necessary, and we could do without it. A truly socially necessary job will have a fully saturated demand signal, and will always have the highest cost allowance in the market. If even that is not enough, we have much bigger problems on our hands.
06:20:06
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo * Potential further question: What if the pay required to incentivize the necessary work exceeds the cost allowance as dictated by demand?
Answer: If there is in fact not a high enough cost allowance, then perhaps this job is not actually socially necessary, and we could do without it. A truly socially necessary job will have a fully saturated demand signal, and will always have the highest cost allowance in the market. If even that is not enough, we have much bigger problems on our hands.
06:21:09
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo
  1. How can we calculate what goods and services society needs if we do away with the commodity form?
    Answer: In Basis, we keep the commodity form, albeit heavily modified from how it behaves under capitalism. Market demand works in much the same way. In fact, it arguably works even better as an indicator of societal need because the lessened wealth inequality means the wealthy have less influence over it.
06:23:20
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo *
  1. How can we calculate what goods and services society needs if we do away with the commodity form?
    Answer: In Basis, we keep the commodity form, albeit heavily modified from how it behaves under capitalism. Market demand works in much the same way.
06:23:53
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo *
  1. How can we calculate what goods and services society needs if we do away with the commodity form?
    Answer: In Basis, we keep the commodity form, albeit heavily modified from how it behaves under capitalism. Market demand works in much the same way. In fact, it arguably works even better as an indicator of societal need because the lessened wealth inequality means the wealthy have less sway over it.
06:32:59
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo *
  1. How can we calculate what goods and services society needs if we do away with the commodity form?
    Answer: In Basis, we keep the commodity form, albeit heavily modified from how it behaves under capitalism. Market demand works in much the same way. In fact, it arguably works even better as an indicator of societal need because the lessened wealth inequality means the wealthy have less influence over it.
06:33:23
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo * 2.5 Does the expansion of a business dilute an individual worker’s control?
Answer: Yes and no. Their control over the business as a whole is diluted, but they still maintain a significant amount of control in the parts of the business that they interact with directly, e.g. who their manager is and how exactly to divvy up the work. All of that being said, if a respectful environment is maintained in which people can discuss business decisions, the ideas that the most workers like will naturally develop a consensus around them.
06:38:59
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo * 2.5 Does the expansion of a business dilute an individual worker’s control?
Answer: Yes and no. Their control over the business as a whole is diluted, but they still maintain a significant amount of control in the parts of the business that they interact with directly, e.g. who their manager is and how exactly to divvy up the work. All of that being said, if a respectful environment is maintained in which people can discuss business decisions, the ideas that the most workers like will naturally develop a consensus around them, so even with diluted direct control, a worker with a good idea can still have a significant impact on the final decision.
06:40:34
@holobrine:matrix.orgNathan Petrangelo * 2.5 Does the expansion of a business dilute an individual worker’s control?
Answer: Yes and no. Their control over the business as a whole is diluted, but they still maintain a significant amount of control in the parts of the business that they interact with directly, e.g. who their manager is and how exactly to divvy up the work. All of that being said, if a respectful environment is maintained in which people can discuss business decisions, the ideas that the most workers like will naturally develop a consensus around them, so even with diluted direct control, a worker with a good idea and good presentation skills can still have a significant impact on the final decision.
06:41:55

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