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Decentralized Web Summit: General

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Discussion of and around the Decentralized Web Summit conference in SF | https://decentralizedweb.net | CoC https://decentralizedweb.net/conduct/81 Servers

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13 Oct 2021
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismAs I said earlier I've got limited awareness of the technical details of iOS/iphones, but I do know that the way push notifications work is similar to how they work for most apps on Android phones that have Google services.22:36:01
@pauldaoust:matrix.orgPaul d'Aoust Chris Gebhardt: ah whoops yes. The same is also true for you though re: philosophy melded with practicality 🙂 22:39:05
@pauldaoust:matrix.orgPaul d'Aoust * Chris Gebhardt: ah whoops yes. The same is also true for you though re: philosophy melded with practicality 🙂 22:39:20
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismWhen not being used the phones go into a low power draw state with a TCP connection being held open to the Google/Apple push notification server. If someone sends you a message on, say Facebook, the message goes to Facebooks servers and then they send a request to Google/Apple to get your device to wake up and download the message - some apps may have the message text sent via Google/Apple along with the wakeup ping.22:40:50
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismGoogles app on the phone that handles holding the TCP connection doesnt do anything magic that another app cant do and their are various apps that also implement their own push notifications (Signal, conversations.im, Whatsapp etc. )directly from their servers for devices that the app can see do not have Play Services22:43:44
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismThe TCP connection can fail and the app has to wake the phone up from time to time so it can check if the TCP port is still open. The trick is handling this well - if you have a poor network the app needs to wake the phone more often to check the port and establish a new connection 22:46:21
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismGoogles algorithm to handle this is well tuned and pretty power efficient. For devices without Play the one conversation.im uses is pretty good. Signal doesnt have such a great implementation, but its OK22:50:25
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismNot only does the app have to do it well, because Android/AOSP is such a massive ecosystem of devices, theres a number of different power saving modes that have been made, as in some countries (eg. China) devices dont use Play. Some have a bad habit of shutting down apps in unusual ways, which can potentially mess up push notifications 22:58:45
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismhttps://dontkillmyapp.com/22:59:40
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismI've been meaning to check out Manyverse for a while. I've been on Secure Scuttle Butt for ~5 years and the amount of disk space Patchwork uses on my laptop is a bit scary now23:02:49
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinism * I've been meaning to check out Manyverse for a while. I;ve been on Secure Scuttle Butt for ~5 years and the amount of disk space Patchwork uses on my laptop is a bit scary now23:03:15
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinism * I've been meaning to check out Manyverse for a while. I've been on Secure Scuttle Butt for ~5 years and the amount of disk space Patchwork uses on my laptop is a bit scary now23:03:31
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismThink they may have done something recently(ish?) to make Manyverse less storage heavy?23:04:53
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismI say recently, thats probably a couple or more years if I recall23:05:46
@pauldaoust:matrix.orgPaul d'Aoust

dazinism: ah wow, this is fantastic information. If I can digest it successfully it'll help me explain to devs why Holochain-on-mobile has a challenging future... and also, apparently, why it's not such a lost cause as I thought?

Looks like the key here is TCP, and I'm guessing that the WiFi and various mobile standards allow for a connection that remains open yet allows the device to enter a low-power state that waits for an incoming packet before it fully wakes up? Is the same also possible with stateless, socketless UDP (e.g., QUIC protocol)?

One thing I'm curious about is, how do these apps that don't use Google's push notification service stay alive in the background? I thought that was expressly forbidden, and indeed made impossible, by the Android SDK. I'm not much of a dev anymore, but perusing the docs all I could find to make an app do stuff in the background was stuff like registering a callback to trigger on events, such as a schedule interval or an incoming push or SMS

23:10:49
@pauldaoust:matrix.orgPaul d'Aoust *

dazinism: ah wow, this is fantastic information. If I can digest it successfully it'll help me explain to devs why Holochain-on-mobile has a challenging future... and also, apparently, why it's not such a lost cause as I thought?

Looks like the key here is TCP, and I'm guessing that the WiFi and various mobile standards allow for a connection that remains open yet allows the device to enter a low-power state that waits for an incoming packet before it fully wakes up? Is the same also possible with stateless, socketless UDP (e.g., QUIC protocol)?

One thing I'm curious about is, how do these apps that don't use Google's push notification service stay alive in the background? I thought that was expressly forbidden, and indeed made impossible, by the Android SDK. I'm not much of a dev anymore, but perusing the docs all I could find to make an app do stuff in the background was stuff like registering a callback to trigger on events, such as a schedule interval or an incoming push or SMS

23:11:03
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinism

Paul d'Aoust: theres a 'special app access' permission to disable battery optimisation for an app. The app can tell the user why it needs it then get the users permission to not be optimised. That doesnt mean the app will then use loads of power. If the app is designed well it can still minimise power draw. (On older versions of Android things were done differently - been this way for a fair few years now)

Not sure what the deal is with using something other than a TCP port. My knowledge of networking stuff is limited. I couldnt see any reason why the app could do that, unless the way networking on Android or cell networks is implemented would mess things up?

23:28:38
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismWith battery opt disabled the app also has to run a foreground service, which requires it to have a notification constantly open telling the user its running (the user can hide that)23:31:12
@DzzzzzzR:matrix.orgdazinismThe phone can still go into doze (low power mode) with the foreground service running23:32:31
@pauldaoust:matrix.orgPaul d'Aoust
In reply to @DzzzzzzR:matrix.org
With battery opt disabled the app also has to run a foreground service, which requires it to have a notification constantly open telling the user its running (the user can hide that)
ahh, okay, so if it can spawn a foreground service it can do its work. I've seen that with P2P apps I've downloaded from F-Droid.
23:48:22
14 Oct 2021
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@chrisgebhardt:matrix.orgChris Gebhardt dazinism: Thanks, that was great information. I've never explored quite that deeply on the matter. It makes sense now why Signal doesn't do the best job of receiving messages and incoming calls when the phone is in sleep. 22:52:52
17 Oct 2021
@numero6:codelutin.comnuméro6 joined the room.13:27:38
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18 Oct 2021
@m.cunnigham:matrix.orgMichael Cunnigham joined the room.07:50:19
@eseohe:matrix.orgeseoheHi everyone. We are planning the next DWeb Meetup for Thurs, Nov 4 at 5pm PT. Our featured speaker Coraline Ada Ehmke will be discussing trust, respect and equity in the DWeb space based on her blog on the DWeb principle - Mutual Respect. We are also hoping to hear updates from DWeb projects. You can read the article https://blog.archive.org/2021/09/03/the-sacred-geometry-of-respect-trust-and-equity/ and sign up to present a lightning talk at the next meetup https://form.jotform.com/203236908715154 or share with someone who might be interested in speaking 20:40:02
19 Oct 2021
@pauldaoust:matrix.orgPaul d'Aoust
In reply to @eseohe:matrix.org
Hi everyone. We are planning the next DWeb Meetup for Thurs, Nov 4 at 5pm PT. Our featured speaker Coraline Ada Ehmke will be discussing trust, respect and equity in the DWeb space based on her blog on the DWeb principle - Mutual Respect. We are also hoping to hear updates from DWeb projects. You can read the article https://blog.archive.org/2021/09/03/the-sacred-geometry-of-respect-trust-and-equity/ and sign up to present a lightning talk at the next meetup https://form.jotform.com/203236908715154 or share with someone who might be interested in speaking
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19:58:39

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