| 22 Nov 2019 |
|  Michael (t3chguy) joined the room. | 10:30:34 |
 Mathijs | In reply to @lotus_:matrix.org
but remember, xmpp is decentralized too, and complete open source server and client side omemo is poorly supported, mucs are centralised, loads of xeps are poorly supported on lots of servers, because xmpp is meant as a device-to-device messaging spec, adding mutliple devices is a little hacky, XML vs json, poor contact discovery, no good clients on iOS (that last one is the main reason for me to move to matrix after running xmpp for a while) | 10:30:42 |
| Mathijs | want me to go on? | 10:30:46 |
 tulir | power users might not like it as much, but there are other clients (e.g. a weechat plugin) | 10:30:49 |
 lotus_ | tulir Dude, I am not telling to kill web, app, I am just saying that It rather should be an option than main way to use matrix on desktop | 10:31:11 |
 kitsune | lotus_: "should"? to whom? | 10:31:53 |
 whiteweaver | ..but itsis just an option | 10:31:56 |
 neilalexander | In reply to @lotus_:matrix.org
is that it? Well XMPP and Matrix, at a protocol level, are both fairly generic federated message transports. What is more telling really is what is built on top of them. XEPs are a great example of how to kill an ecosystem with fragmentation for example, as that is largely what has happened with Jabber clients that often don't support the same things and don't interoperate well | 10:32:00 |
|  steve joined the room. | 10:32:23 |
| whiteweaver | And, well, something has to be a default if there is one at all. | 10:32:39 |
| Michael (t3chguy) | neilalexander: Matrix isn't a message transport, its more akin to an eventually consistent database | 10:33:24 |
| neilalexander | In reply to @x:riot.ovh
neilalexander: Matrix isn't a message transport, its more akin to an eventually consistent database At a fundamental level, yes, but for the purposes of most users, it transports messages | 10:33:48 |
| kitsune | lotus_: seriously, without anything to put behind your words, it's just whining. You don't want to use Matrix at this moment - don't use it, wait until the next year, you'll get your desktop clients with end-to-end encryption, for free, as all people like. Meanwhile - feel free to use XMPP if you feel at home there. | 10:34:09 |
| neilalexander | In other news, it looks like AVAudioSession not being available on macOS has somehow killed Seaglass builds, so that's fun | 10:37:03 |
| lotus_ | kitsune right, for free, you are mention money again, is that the primary reason for you to participate in project? I mean, since when open source is about money, I was expecting to meet here some enthusiasts who are bored to death of nowadays IMs and those who see unsolvable problems of open protocos, those who wanted something big and overwhelming, but you are lower it all to what, money? convenience to end user? | 10:37:40 |
| kitsune | lotus_: I don't get _anything_ from this project. Anything at all. | 10:38:09 |
| whiteweaver | Convenience is, unfortunately, insanely important. | 10:38:22 |
 joepie91 | lotus_: I mean, quite a few people involved in Matrix are here to try and solve the problems with open protocols. but those problems just don't include your seemingly-irrational hate for Electron | 10:38:38 |
| kitsune | Moreover, I contributed with my own money when main Matrix developers were struggling. | 10:38:41 |
| joepie91 | lotus_: that someone doesn't care about your particular pet peeve doesn't mean that they're not interested in making something a success | 10:38:59 |
| lotus_ | then have my respect kitsune! | 10:39:13 |
| joepie91 | like, you've been complaining here about Electron for what, a day now? | 10:39:23 |
| kitsune | Now how about helping with anything whatsoever aside from your "feedback" to the project? | 10:39:27 |
| joepie91 | and the various associated things | 10:39:36 |
| joepie91 | we get the point, you don't like Electron, you don't like JS, you don't like web-y things, duly noted, now what? | 10:39:59 |
|  toml joined the room. | 10:40:22 |
| kitsune | lotus_: You don't even propose the platform to move to. And you most likely have no idea how much it takes to make a workable solution that would be _accessible_ to as many people as possible. Did you even think that people _prefer_ web browsers for many good reasons? And they don't give a damn about your ideological problems with Electron or JS. | 10:40:40 |
| lotus_ | joepie91 that is not entirelly my point | 10:40:45 |
 martin ➬ | open standards, open protocols. move on. | 10:40:49 |
| lotus_ | okay, thx 4 conversation, c'ya | 10:40:50 |
