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matrixstats-dev

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Discussions about matrixstats.org development and related topics. GitHub: https://github.com/a13xmt/matrixstats.org/issues37 Servers

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12 Nov 2018
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt I'm currently working on interface for homeserver owners. So they could add and setup homeservers for additional features if they interested in it.

Is there anything incorrect in a current project state? It's better to know at moment.
07:50:33
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

At risk of starting another heated debate.. you have essentially made the google search for matrix room discovery which is overall a fantastic thing for the community as a whole.

I still don’t see why there shouldn’t be an equivalent of “safe search” that turns off nsfw/nsfl/extreme content. Users can still turn safe search off to see whatever they want.. but default behavior probably shouldn’t promote nsfw/nsfl/extreme content

08:08:39
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudExample:08:09:11
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudima_5de3928.jpeg
Download ima_5de3928.jpeg
08:10:08
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudima_92a8e48.jpeg
Download ima_92a8e48.jpeg
08:10:24
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudNot talking about deleting/banning/removing content.. just a simple tag that hides it by default that any visitor on the site can turn on or off.08:11:25
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudThose examples were not great for my point as one could argue they are not extreme enough. I’m talking about nsfl (not safe for life), nsfw (porn/not safe for work), and extreme (illegal in most countries) content08:13:56
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtWell, this makes sense08:26:04
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

Tagging is hard. Ran a script the other day that gathered 840 home servers and over 11k public rooms. Reviewing every room by hand is impractical/impossible for one dev.

Possible solutions:

  • public reporting (shot down because of abuse potential)
  • automatic filters (shot down because of arbitrary closed filtering)
  • filtering by obscurity (what we have now but stuff still pops up on the front page from time to time)
08:29:26
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudI don’t know how we should achieve this goal. I just think it should be a goal going forward. Maybe with the launch of room claiming, the front page could be claimed rooms only? So instead of :newly discovered rooms” we show “newly claimed rooms”. Not a perfect solution as it does not guarantee people correctly tag their rooms.. but it’s a step in the right direction08:32:50
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt Claiming or manual moderation wouldn't change a lot, since room description may be altered after the moderation. So, the system still may be intentionally abused in this case.

One way comes to mind is manual approvement for fixed descriptions. They would be displayed in the state they was approved. This would drastically decrease the interactivity as well.
08:58:09
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

It might help to hear from some of the big matrix devs and community operators.. thoughts on moderation and techniques.

Many rooms don’t change often but some are fairly dynamic and their tags should probably have some flexibility as well.

Permanent description approval is a great idea as long as you don’t get overwhelmed by the amount of rooms. Automating still seems like the easiest solution..room owners can submit a ticket for you to manually fix incorrect automated tags.

09:05:24
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt That's a big amount of changes for a pet project really. The initial project scope was a way smaller, and a bit naive, it seems. It's not about technology anymore, it's about community handling.

While community handling is interesting activity by it's own, it's not something fun to spend free time on, in addition to parallel development. Matrixstats is just a concept that goes too far away. I'm not sure it would be constantly expanded to include all the expectations.
10:27:27
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtAs a temporal solution, "New rooms" were removed from the index page.11:57:29
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtAnd for "Random rooms", memeber filter got increased from 5 to 50.11:59:24
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtIt will decrease the amount of harmful rooms until some point.12:04:30
@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org

Yes, only rooms approved by Kommisar Krud.

And what about sex rooms "curated" ny "kxra"/"thekyriarchy" pushing little boys to demand they were never boys and their penises were "lies" from the "patriarchy"? Do such rooms demand special "victim" status for "Political Correct" bullshit?

Or what about treasonous rooms by "Baffy" and his dozens of Sockpuppets, who want to violently overthrow the government of his U.S.A.? That shit is probably illegal.

Yet der Kommissar is worried about silly LARPERS, who fall outside the "Politically Correct" handbook left by Joseph Stalin. :-\

13:40:54
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

Maximus asked for a tldr and the backlog got longer:/

TL;DR: mr. Milk is very passionate about things not being censored. I also don’t like censorship, but wanted more strict tagging so users who don’t want to see the worst of matrix rooms can filter by tags.

The heated debate has likely scared away others from commenting their valuable opinions on this topic. Maybe someone’s different perspective can help improve things.

18:09:58
@eric:ericmartindale.com@martindaleare room tags really that controversial?18:30:43
@max:kamax.io@max:kamax.io

colonelkrud: thank you for the TD;DR, appreciated. Since you're asking for someone with a different opinion:
I think the discussion is not on track anymore and is missing more important points:

  1. this is a personal project, not a business project and not a project affiliated with an entity that claims to be neutral or has the resources to handle all the consequences of a neutral approach in the current politically-correct climate of the world.
  2. This is a13xmt project, and he's the sole person capable of deciding. Also, its their right to decide whatever they want. It's done free of charge, out of their own time and energy and has no need to explain his choice in the first place.
  3. I believe this is a lot more about illegal vs legal rather than neutral vs politically correct. As an individual, there is basically no law that protect you against any attack if you were to list or reference in any way something which is illegal, or is nearly-illegal (e.g. something not illegal, but with enogh political pressure to cause you troubles big enough to have a significant impact on your life). This is very problematic and is not something a single invidivual can handle with something like the Matrix federation size I believe.

So TL;DR: As an individual, it's too risky to host a non-curated or non-moderated list of anything. Make sure that whatever you do is not illegal and be on the safe side!

18:38:50
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt:)19:01:14
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtWell, thanks for clarifying, it's clear enough.19:01:33
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtThat's not the activity I'm actually interested, it seems.19:02:40
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt>Milk is very passionate about things not being censored. and that one was a little trolling, right? Anyway, I think we could finish with that soon.19:06:11
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

I’m talking about nsfl (not safe for life), nsfw (porn/not safe for work), and extreme (illegal in most countries) content

I never was trying to make the point for neutral vs PC. Milk has been replying to every comment i make accusing me of that :/

I believe this is a lot more about illegal vs legal rather than neutral vs politically correct.

that is exactly what I was talking about.. with the includion of porn filtering.. but people seem to agree that porn should be tagged as porn.

and that one was a little trolling, right?

I've been trying to discuss this topic seriously. I am not really one for trolling. I was genuinely concerned about you hosting a non-moderated list and problems that could come up in the future of the project.
I apologize for sounding misleading, I never intended to imp[ly that I spoke on behalf of this project. I do not claim this project as my own. I was simply speaking as a member of the community in the dev room and making suggestions according to my subjective view of this project.

19:39:31
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudI used phraings like "how could we" to sound like a more open and friendly conversation as opposed to "how could you".. which sounds more like a demand awaiting a response. I do sincerely apologize. It was never my intent to offend people or claim work that isn't mine.19:43:47
@lotharw:matrix.org@lotharw:matrix.org"Yet der Kommissar is worried about silly LARPERS, who fall outside the "Politically Correct" handbook left by Joseph Stalin. :-\" as an spectator i am suprised this this isn't consitered "a little trolling"19:53:05
@eric:ericmartindale.com@martindaleeither way, just submit a proposal for room tags, ensure they are enabled but empty by default, maybe even consider making them local to users only (not clear Matrix would support this). It's a tired discussion19:54:07
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudIdea being a server admin could add tags to their own HS like "contact information", "admin name", "geolocation", and whatever else they want to tag with. In addition to that, rooms could have an actual tags field instead of just the description. Promoting users to tag their own rooms could dramatically help with discovery.20:00:15
@eric:ericmartindale.com@martindalesure! go write it up. :)20:00:35

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