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matrixstats-dev

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Discussions about matrixstats.org development and related topics. GitHub: https://github.com/a13xmt/matrixstats.org/issues37 Servers

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3 Nov 2018
@tulir:maunium.nettulirgit doesn't do anything about censorship13:46:08
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudTrue. I was just thinking about being more transparent instead of keeping it private.13:46:58
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudMostly since people can see the edit history. TBH I can’t think of much utility for an un-groomed list of homeservers. It would just be a list of thousands and thousands of domain names with little assurance they are actually maintaining an active homeserver. Splitting the list into “active” and “archive” might be slightly more useful..13:49:39
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud I did have a thought a while ago about comparing such a list to known domain blacklists. It might be interesting to see the percentage of blacklisted domains that are hosting a homeserver as part of the population 13:52:24
@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org

Keep in mind the scope of this project:

”We aim to make rooms more searchable and descriptive, so the users can explore thousands of rooms and become a part of the network shortly.”

Is it YOUR PROJECT?!?! Keel in mind that in addition to the room index there is a Homeserver index, AND the Hello-Matrix list is no longer neutral nor objective, but biased and subjective.

True. I was just thinking about being more transparent instead of keeping it private.

Then do not push for keeping listing of some Homeservers "private".

TBH I can’t think of much utility for an un-groomed list of homeservers.

For the umpteenth time, if you want to "groom" your own "curated" list, fork this project and maintain your own list!

I did have a thought a while ago about comparing such a list to known domain blacklists. It might be interesting to see the percentage of blacklisted domains that are hosting a homeserver as part of the population

Yeah, THAT seems to be your only agenda in here Censorship and blacklisting. Fork the repo' and operate YOUR OWN list. This project has seen enough pushy people who do not appreciate the effort.

14:05:06
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud The scope is stated on the about page. 14:13:39
@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org

Good on ya' for being able to read.

Fork the project, or just keep a downstream copy on your own hosting. Then you may issue whatever "scope" or prequalification, criteria, or whatever pedantic ambiguous rhetoric you like to justify your arbitrary curated blacklist grooming.

14:20:56
8 Nov 2018
@eric:ericmartindale.com@martindale joined the room.03:46:19
12 Nov 2018
@swedneck:swedneck.xyz@swedneck joined the room.00:48:11
@swedneck:swedneck.xyz@swedneckwell that's some interesting history to read00:54:12
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud:(01:20:04
@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org@MilkManzJourDaddy:matrix.org Go way back, where muppeth got shitty with the Dev' and crapped on this project. 02:30:36
@max:kamax.io@max:kamax.ioWhat's the TL;DR for those with a huge backlog?02:44:34
@max:kamax.io@max:kamax.io a13xmt: specifically asking you here, nobody else 02:45:43
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt There wasn't actually such issues with muppeth. It was some feedback and that's it.

When the first bot version was released, there was a conversation about it's automatical registration and content indexing. The bot was intended to join servers and gather statistics on public rooms. And this kind of stuff wasn't very attractive for some members.

So the bot was stopped until it would be more user friendly.

Two weeks ago this conversation was started again. The reason is that hello-matrix server list is becoming curated, so matrixstats could probably take it place at homeserver indexing.

And, that conversation was resulted in some moderation proposals at matrixstats, the state we are currently in.
07:25:53
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtSo, there wasn't actually any issues, at least as I see it07:28:53
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt I'm currently working on interface for homeserver owners. So they could add and setup homeservers for additional features if they interested in it.

Is there anything incorrect in a current project state? It's better to know at moment.
07:50:33
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

At risk of starting another heated debate.. you have essentially made the google search for matrix room discovery which is overall a fantastic thing for the community as a whole.

I still don’t see why there shouldn’t be an equivalent of “safe search” that turns off nsfw/nsfl/extreme content. Users can still turn safe search off to see whatever they want.. but default behavior probably shouldn’t promote nsfw/nsfl/extreme content

08:08:39
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudExample:08:09:11
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudima_5de3928.jpeg
Download ima_5de3928.jpeg
08:10:08
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudima_92a8e48.jpeg
Download ima_92a8e48.jpeg
08:10:24
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudNot talking about deleting/banning/removing content.. just a simple tag that hides it by default that any visitor on the site can turn on or off.08:11:25
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudThose examples were not great for my point as one could argue they are not extreme enough. I’m talking about nsfl (not safe for life), nsfw (porn/not safe for work), and extreme (illegal in most countries) content08:13:56
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtWell, this makes sense08:26:04
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

Tagging is hard. Ran a script the other day that gathered 840 home servers and over 11k public rooms. Reviewing every room by hand is impractical/impossible for one dev.

Possible solutions:

  • public reporting (shot down because of abuse potential)
  • automatic filters (shot down because of arbitrary closed filtering)
  • filtering by obscurity (what we have now but stuff still pops up on the front page from time to time)
08:29:26
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrudI don’t know how we should achieve this goal. I just think it should be a goal going forward. Maybe with the launch of room claiming, the front page could be claimed rooms only? So instead of :newly discovered rooms” we show “newly claimed rooms”. Not a perfect solution as it does not guarantee people correctly tag their rooms.. but it’s a step in the right direction08:32:50
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt Claiming or manual moderation wouldn't change a lot, since room description may be altered after the moderation. So, the system still may be intentionally abused in this case.

One way comes to mind is manual approvement for fixed descriptions. They would be displayed in the state they was approved. This would drastically decrease the interactivity as well.
08:58:09
@colonelkrud:matrix.colonelkrud.comcolonelkrud

It might help to hear from some of the big matrix devs and community operators.. thoughts on moderation and techniques.

Many rooms don’t change often but some are fairly dynamic and their tags should probably have some flexibility as well.

Permanent description approval is a great idea as long as you don’t get overwhelmed by the amount of rooms. Automating still seems like the easiest solution..room owners can submit a ticket for you to manually fix incorrect automated tags.

09:05:24
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmt That's a big amount of changes for a pet project really. The initial project scope was a way smaller, and a bit naive, it seems. It's not about technology anymore, it's about community handling.

While community handling is interesting activity by it's own, it's not something fun to spend free time on, in addition to parallel development. Matrixstats is just a concept that goes too far away. I'm not sure it would be constantly expanded to include all the expectations.
10:27:27
@a13xmt:matrix.orga13xmtAs a temporal solution, "New rooms" were removed from the index page.11:57:29

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