 | am2r-development | 1483 Members |
| Discuss development of AM2R as a whole. Rules: https://matrix.to/#/#am2r-welcome-rules:matrix.org | 6 Servers |
| am2r-development | 1483 Members |
| Discuss development of AM2R as a whole. Rules: https://matrix.to/#/#am2r-welcome-rules:matrix.org | 6 Servers |
| Sender | Message | Time |
|---|---|---|
| 4 Jan 2024 | ||
 347online | I do want to stress: I did assume there were very good technical reasons why this was the case, I just didn't know how else to find out what they were, and I CERTAINLY did not mean to imply otherwise | 03:08:41 |
| 347online | "Just" is a four-letter-word | 03:09:09 |
 Chief Idiocy Officer | No worries at all, this isn't a "I'm mad so I'm writing everything out" this is more "I really should have had a big writeup for this by now so I'll answer as thoroughly as I can so I can just point at this next time too" 😆 | 03:09:29 |
| 347online | Yes, I'm hanging on every word!! Technical is exactly what I was hoping for | 03:10:13 |
| 347online | (Sorry I don't mean to interrupt) | 03:10:36 |
 hugdaddy | as someone who's done a fair deal of coding, it's hard to fathom why they'd make such a vast overhaul... I can see why you wouldn't want to migrate for sure! | 03:12:31 |
| 347online | Yeah def seconded | 03:12:49 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | # 4) The New Runtime Where do I even start with this one? GameMaker's future does not look like a stable vehicle for AM2R. ## What is the New Runtime? The New Runtime, from what I have gathered from Russell Kay's ramblings on Discord over the years, is a complete rewrite of everything GameMaker from the ground up. It is the successor to GMS2, and GMS2 is already considered something of a legacy product by him as they move to finish and publish this. GMS2 projects will supposedly be compatible with the New Runtime via compatibility library, but I would anticipate this to have many similar caveats to a port from GM:S 1.4 to GMS2. ## Uncertainty The New Runtime has no guarantees. The purchase model is not known (though we do know that GMS2 licenses will not apply), we have no guarantee of it being a useful tool, we have no guarantee of it even being stable. There's no legacy to build on here - the New Runtime is everything from scratch. I certainly hope that it goes well, but cannot trust that it will given YoYo Games' current track record in regard to development practices. ## Deprecation YoYo Games and Opera have no commitment to enabling old software to continue to be usable. After the move to Opera SSO, you cannot log into any version of GMS2 that released prior to the Opera SSO integration. Once the New Runtime is out, GMS2 will begin deprecation and similarly be left behind once login infrastructure moves on. Without robust modding tools, staying on GMS2 is not an option once the New Runtime releases - and again, I can't really trust that it will be particularly usable or a particularly clean port, as much as I may hope for it to be. | 03:13:12 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | # Conclusion Effectively, the chain of logic is as follows: AM2R's technical debt and incompatibilities between GM:S 1.4 and GMS2 make a simple port near impossible. -> What if you were willing to do most of a rewrite, holding on to the parts that do still work? -> Modding would be significantly impacted, and we would be required to forever keep pace with GameMaker's updates and upcoming rewrite. This project (the Community Updates and 2.0) isn't infinite, but we would like for the game itself to continue to be a resource for creative expression and self-education on game development and programming for as long as possible. Even if we were to find the means to do a mostly complete rewrite, these two goals would largely suffer as we lock ourselves into the modern GameMaker ecosystem. | 03:18:05 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | * # Conclusion Effectively, the chain of logic is as follows: AM2R's technical debt and incompatibilities between GM:S 1.4 and GMS2 make a simple port near impossible. -> What if you were willing to do most of a rewrite, holding on to the parts that do still work? -> Modding would be significantly impacted, and we would be required to forever keep pace with GameMaker's updates and upcoming rewrite. -> The current project state is, for now, the best path forwards in terms of maintainability and moddability. This project (the Community Updates and 2.0) isn't infinite, but we would like for the game itself to continue to be a resource for creative expression and self-education on game development and programming for as long as possible. Even if we were to find the means to do a mostly complete rewrite, these two goals would largely suffer as we lock ourselves into the modern GameMaker ecosystem. | 03:18:42 |
| 347online | Extremely informative, thank you so so much | 03:18:46 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | Anytime. Thanks for asking. | 03:19:10 |
 Spooky Detective Lucario | Might be a good idea to pin. >_> | 03:19:14 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | * # 4) The New Runtime Where do I even start with this one? GameMaker's future does not look like a stable vehicle for AM2R. ## What is the New Runtime? The New Runtime, from what I have gathered from Russell Kay's ramblings on Discord over the years, is a complete rewrite of everything GameMaker from the ground up. It is the successor to GMS2, and GMS2 is already considered something of a legacy product by him as they move to finish and publish this. GMS2 projects will supposedly be compatible with the New Runtime via a compatibility library, but I would anticipate this to have many similar caveats to a port from GM:S 1.4 to GMS2. ## Uncertainty The New Runtime has no guarantees. The purchase model is not known (though we do know that GMS2 licenses will not apply), we have no guarantee of it being a useful tool, we have no guarantee of it even being stable. There's no legacy to build on here - the New Runtime is everything from scratch. I certainly hope that it goes well, but cannot trust that it will given YoYo Games' current track record in regard to development practices. ## Deprecation YoYo Games and Opera have no commitment to enabling old software to continue to be usable. After the move to Opera SSO, you cannot log into any version of GMS2 that released prior to the Opera SSO integration. Once the New Runtime is out, GMS2 will begin deprecation and similarly be left behind once login infrastructure moves on. Without robust modding tools, staying on GMS2 is not an option once the New Runtime releases - and again, I can't really trust that it will be particularly usable or a particularly clean port, as much as I may hope for it to be. | 03:19:56 |
| 347online | What about 1.6 would theoretically make Mac less of a pipe dream? If we pop the stack all the way back to what initially prompted me to ask, I was under the impression that GMS 1.4 couldn't produce binaries that would run on modern versions of macOS | 03:20:21 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | * # 4) The New Runtime Where do I even start with this one? GameMaker's future does not look like a stable vehicle for AM2R. ## What is the New Runtime? The New Runtime, from what I have gathered from Russell Kay's ramblings on Discord over the years, is a complete rewrite of everything GameMaker from the ground up. It is the successor to GMS2, and GMS2 is already considered something of a legacy product by him as they move to finish and publish this. GMS2 projects will supposedly be compatible with the New Runtime via a compatibility library, but I would anticipate this to have many similar caveats to a port from GM:S 1.4 to GMS2. ## Uncertainties The New Runtime has no guarantees. The purchase model is not known (though we do know that GMS2 licenses will not apply), we have no guarantee of it being a useful tool, we have no guarantee of it even being stable. There's no legacy to build on here - the New Runtime is everything from scratch. I certainly hope that it goes well, but cannot trust that it will given YoYo Games' current track record in regard to development practices. ## Certainties We do know that the New Runtime uses some type of actual code compilation - not to bytecode, but something akin to the YYC - which would completely shut down code modding efforts without IDE and source access. ## Deprecation YoYo Games and Opera have no commitment to enabling old software to continue to be usable. After the move to Opera SSO, you cannot log into any version of GMS2 that released prior to the Opera SSO integration. Once the New Runtime is out, GMS2 will begin deprecation and similarly be left behind once login infrastructure moves on. Without robust modding tools, staying on GMS2 is not an option once the New Runtime releases - and again, I can't really trust that it will be particularly usable or a particularly clean port, as much as I may hope for it to be. | 03:20:56 |
| 347online | Or at least that there were yet more severe caveats | 03:20:59 |
 Idiot B-56 | I though there was a mac version? | 03:21:05 |
| Idiot B-56 | * I thought there was a mac version? | 03:21:17 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | 1.6 is basically taking AM2R, porting it from 1.4.1763 to 1.4.9999, and then stuffing it into runners for 2.1.5. | 03:22:33 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | * 1.6 is basically taking current AM2R Community Updates, porting it from 1.4.1763 to 1.4.9999, and then stuffing it into runners for 2.1.5. | 03:22:43 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | This works because 1.4.9999 and 2.1.5 are actually the same bytecode version and just use a switch in the datafile to tell it to turn off GMS2 features. | 03:23:17 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | 2.1.5 also just so happens to be the first version of Studio 2 that outputs a 64-bit Android runner... which allows the game to run again on the newest releases of Android. | 03:23:51 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | 2.1.5 also has 64-bit runners for Linux and Mac, making Linux compatibility easier and Mac compatibility basically guaranteed (except maybe on Apple Silicon but that's always all bets off). | 03:24:43 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | Windows is still 32-bit only, unfortunately, as the transition to 64-bit on Windows occurred after 2.3 (which was far too drastic a change to be compatible with 1.4.9999 datafiles). | 03:25:20 |
| 347online | Okay, as long as it's 64-bit I would largely expect Rosetta 2 to be able to handle it... hopefully | 03:25:36 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | But that doesn't matter because Microsoft literally can't move away from 32-bit without destroying their entire business model of being the company of infinite backwards compatibility 😆 | 03:25:44 |
| 347online | For whatever it's worth, I do certainly recognize I'm a niche of a niche of a niche | 03:26:45 |
| 347online | wanting to play this on an Apple Silicon Mac :P | 03:26:56 |
| Chief Idiocy Officer | Now, 1.6 is a little more complicated than that makes it sound because 1.4.9999 and 1.4.1763 actually have a lot of behavioral differences that make things like some hitboxes and a lot of surfaces act up, but I think we've got most of it under control. Really need to sit down one of these weekends and try to hammer out the rest of it... | 03:27:11 |