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cylc & isodatetime

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4 Aug 2020
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie DuttaBut is this finance stuff different from how forecasters use it? I can't really find out any info about the latter12:37:01
@tpillinger:matrix.orgTim PForecasters don't use it - this is climate modellers - As I was fond of telling people who wanted an argument about climate change - "asking a forecaster about climate change is like asking a bacteriologist about elephants - they're broadly the same thing, but the elephant is a bit bigger - having said which I trust the Met Office climate people."12:46:43
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie DuttaIt looks like the ISO 8601 is only meant to deal with the gregorian calendar. It seems to me that any 360 calendar functionality should have much smaller scope12:47:15
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersCorrect!12:49:10
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie DuttaIt has too much scope at the moment12:49:39
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersMost of the "scope" is fine though, like for instance performing calculations on the 360 day calendar is fine, you get an answer in units which make sense within the 360 day calendar, the issue is when you try bringing Gregorian dates into it.12:51:24
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersWhat do you mean by "smaller scope"?12:52:00
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sanders * What precisely do you have in mind with "smaller scope"?12:52:17
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie DuttaI'm not sure 🤪13:00:05
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta

Having looked at https://climate4impact.eu/impactportal/downscaling/downscalingdocs.jsp?q=alternative_model_calendars
it seems very different from finance

From a technical point of view the GCM calendar is determined by the repetition period associated with the variation of solar radiation input. This repetition period can be set to any value but in this context the values 360 days, 365 days and 365.2425 days are relevant. The latter case results in that the GCM simulates the Gregorian calendar.

13:00:30
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie DuttaAnd more like the current isodatetime implementation, i.e. it drifts out of sync with gregorian13:01:28
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta * And more like the current isodatetime implementation, i.e. it (360) drifts out of sync with gregorian13:01:36
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersYep.13:02:31
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersIt doesn't really matter, from the isodatetime end our job is to provide people with a repating system of years, months, and days, it's down to the user to work out what they want to do with it.13:03:09
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sanders * It doesn't really matter though, from the isodatetime end our job is to provide people with a repating system of years, months, and days, it's down to the user to work out what they want to do with it.13:03:20
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sanders * It doesn't really matter though, from the isodatetime end our job is to provide people with a repating system of years, months, and days, it's down to the user to work out what they want to do with it / how they want to interpret it.13:03:40
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sanders * It doesn't really matter though, from the isodatetime end our job is to provide people with a repeating system of years, months, and days, it's down to the user to work out what they want to do with it / how they want to interpret it.13:03:46
@tpillinger:matrix.orgTim Pah, Cylc as LEGO 13:03:55
@tpillinger:matrix.orgTim P *

It doesn't really matter though, from the isodatetime end our job is to provide people with a repating system of years, months, and days, it's down to the user to work out what they want to do with it.

ah, Cylc as LEGO: Lots of useful bits - painful when trodden on.

13:04:27
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta

Just to summarise some (hopefully) Correct information about isodatetime:

  • The 360 day calendar is literally just a calendar where a "year" is made up of 12 "months" of 30 "days" each
  • Each day is 24 * 60 * 60 seconds long still, but the "real world" duration of the fundamental unit of second is whatever the user wants it to be
  • That 2nd point is also true of the Gregorian calendar
13:50:40
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie DuttaAnd I believe:13:50:48
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta
  • We provide convenience functions for getting the current Gregorian datetime based on real world unix time, but there isn't a canonical 360 day calendar in the world and no-one should try to convert Greg <-> 360 day unless they somehow supply some context for how the two relate for their specific 360 calendar
13:50:52
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta *
  • We provide convenience functions for getting the current Gregorian datetime based on real world unix time, but there isn't a canonical 360 day calendar in the world and no-one should try to convert Greg <-> 360 day unless they somehow supply some context for how the two relate for their specific 360 calendar (which we don't provide for?)
13:51:33
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta

Also:

  • Ignore whatever it is the finance people are doing
13:53:51
@tpillinger:matrix.orgTim P

Ignore whatever it is the finance people are doing

Probably good life advice

13:55:25
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sanders

That 2nd point is also true of the Gregorian calendar

Not quite as we provide the ability to represent the current time using the gregorian calendar (though sadly it would seem this is also true for 360 day 🤦‍♀️).

duration of the fundamental unit of second is whatever the user wants it to be

Isodatetime does not handle leap seconds (which effectively means we use a leap-slur)..

Ignore whatever it is the finance people are doing

Ignore what the climate people do too! It's not isodatetime's job to work out what people want to do with the coordinate system we give them.

13:57:55
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sanders *

That 2nd point is also true of the Gregorian calendar

Not quite as we provide the ability to represent the current time using the gregorian calendar (though sadly it would seem this is also true for 360 day 🤦‍♀️). But fair enough, you could just use it as a coordinate system ignoring its relevance to the real world.

duration of the fundamental unit of second is whatever the user wants it to be

Isodatetime does not handle leap seconds (which effectively means we use a leap-slur)..

Ignore whatever it is the finance people are doing

Ignore what the climate people do too! It's not isodatetime's job to work out what people want to do with the coordinate system we give them.

13:58:32
@metronnie:matrix.orgRonnie Dutta If I understand this issue correctly: https://github.com/metomi/isodatetime/issues/70
It's not about converting e.g. 360 <-> Greg, but more about trying to do Greg stuff while the CALENDAR singleton is set to e.g. 360day
13:58:33
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersYep13:59:00
@oliver-sanders2:matrix.orgoliver sandersWe can only work in one calendar mode at a time which is a right pain.13:59:15

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