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11 Nov 2021
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx
In reply to @corrinado:matrix.org
As much 'hate' as Gnome and their developers/designers face - There is a part of me that understands their side of the fight. Does that mean that I agree with all the decisions they make? Absolutely not. Do I think that they could handle communication with a larger community better? Yes — All that to say that some of the problems they are attempting to 'solve' tend to be much more philosophical and challenging for UI designers overall. Take 'Accessibility' for example. There is a crap-ton of work that needs to be done there. Someone has to create a better design language to assist app devs to 'grow' in that area. These are problems that will probably go unsolved for a long long time. Someone has to shake the boat a bit to learn how to increase stability over time. Those choices will tick people off; almost always.
I mean, if you have read the article in question, you could see as per GNOME, System76 behaving badly systematically. And this libadwaita as a triggering point based the GNOME dev's past experience with them.

I don't hate them. "Hate" is far too strong a word for me. But just like GNOME dev, my past experience with them is triggering a lot of pain points.

Also, unlike the KDE team, GNOME maintains GTK used by Cinnamon, XFCE, Pantheon, MATE, Deepin and probably some more.

The design decisions on GTK is shown against GNOME team. Not just about dev decisions on the DE.
03:27:59
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx* I mean, if you have read the article in question, you could see as per GNOME, System76 behaving badly systematically. And this libadwaita as a triggering point based the GNOME dev's past experience with them. I don't hate them. "Hate" is far too strong a word for me. But just like GNOME dev, my past experience with them is triggering a lot of pain points. Also, unlike the KDE team, GNOME maintains GTK used by Cinnamon, XFCE, Pantheon, MATE, Deepin, Solus DE and probably some more. This is a hell a lot of DE's for different aesthetics and purposes unlike for KDE. The design decisions on GTK is shown against GNOME team. Not just about dev decisions on the DE.03:29:53
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx* I mean, if you have read the article in question, you could see as per GNOME, System76 behaving badly systematically. And this libadwaita as a triggering point based the GNOME dev's past experience with them. I don't hate them. "Hate" is far too strong a word for me. But just like GNOME dev, my past experience with them is triggering a lot of pain points. Also, unlike the KDE team, GNOME maintains GTK used by Cinnamon, XFCE, Pantheon, MATE, Deepin, Solus DE and probably some more. This is a hell a lot of DE's for different aesthetics and purposes unlike for KDE. The emotions on the design decisions of GTK is also shown against GNOME team. Not just about dev decisions on the DE.03:31:54
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx* I mean, if you have read the article in question, you could see as per GNOME, System76 behaving badly systematically. And this libadwaita as a triggering point based the GNOME dev's past experience with them. I don't hate them. "Hate" is far too strong a word for me. But just like GNOME dev, my past experience with them is triggering a lot of pain points. Also, unlike the KDE team, GNOME maintains GTK used by Cinnamon, XFCE, Pantheon, MATE, Deepin, Solus DE and probably some more. This is a hell a lot of DE's for different aesthetics and purposes unlike for KDE. There is bound to be friction. The emotions on the design decisions of GTK is also shown against GNOME team. Not just about dev decisions on the DE.03:34:15
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx* I mean, if you have read the article in question, you could see as per GNOME, System76 behaving badly systematically. And this libadwaita as a triggering point based the GNOME dev's past experience with them. I don't hate them. "Hate" is far too strong a word for me. But just like GNOME dev, my past experience with them is triggering a lot of pain points when this happened. It is not particularly about JUST this incident. Also, unlike the KDE team, GNOME maintains GTK used by Cinnamon, XFCE, Pantheon, MATE, Deepin, Solus DE and probably some more. This is a hell a lot of DE's for different aesthetics and purposes unlike for KDE. There is bound to be friction. The emotions on the design decisions of GTK is also shown against GNOME team. Not just about dev decisions on the DE.03:35:12
@Jaypatelani:matrix.orgJaypatelanihttps://opensource.googleblog.com/2021/11/expanding-google-summer-of-code-in-2022.html03:45:41
@corrinado:matrix.org@corrinado:matrix.org Well said UNiqx - it is staggering how widely used GTK is. I agree with your point that those DEs all have individual goals that don't necessarily have to fit withing Gnome's goals. Not completely at least. The fact that these arguments and disagreement go on, and on, and on, and on tends prove a few points and become tiring - all at the same time. Lastly, I fully recognize that some of the S76 communications are a 'bad look' for them; not their best moments. 04:06:16
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx
In reply to @corrinado:matrix.org
Well said UNiqx - it is staggering how widely used GTK is. I agree with your point that those DEs all have individual goals that don't necessarily have to fit withing Gnome's goals. Not completely at least. The fact that these arguments and disagreement go on, and on, and on, and on tends prove a few points and become tiring - all at the same time. Lastly, I fully recognize that some of the S76 communications are a 'bad look' for them; not their best moments.
I agree. The problem I think I see is both sides are channeling in their past experiences on this current incident.

This explains why System76's one comment on a tweet was found as an attack by the GNOME dev. Individually, it didn't make sense.

But reading the blog post from GNOME, they are riled up from their last interactions and got triggered with the slightest criticism.

Both sides needs to make changes. I think System76 could've avoided some tweets too. It only escalated things.
04:14:57
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqxAnd people forget that LXDE moved from GTK to QT sighting issues with GTK3's direction. This is a less famous incident comparatively. So GNOME must be doing something wrong right? I really don't know a solution. But attacking GNOME devs alone is not going to solve it. Leaving them alone in this path doesn't help either AFAIK. ElementaryOS has been successfully collaborating with GNOME for a while now. How are they doing it? And that is the ONLY instance I know which is an absolute success when it comes collab with GNOME. But eOS is very reliant on Vala/GTK for Pantheon DE and other things. Does this mean they played by GNOME's rules? I don't know. But there is definitely something to learn from there to make this better.04:26:35
@corrinado:matrix.org@corrinado:matrix.orgLots to parse there == no simple answers and/or silver bullets. I'm lucky in the sense that I'm a consumer rather than a dev for any of the DEs. The systems I maintain/provision don't have a DE. Servers only. The human element to many of these issues seems (at times) to be more complicated than the technical problems.04:37:17
@aaron:matrix.org@aaron:matrix.org I stopped following the whole GTK/GNOME mess shortly after they doubled down on their no community feedback rule around GTK3. Redhat just isn't good at discussing their direction with the community and they've made a mess out of the GTK and GNOME teams both because of it. It's really just egos, politics, and people getting fed up with the 90º turn in direction from core projects. No technical reason for the mess they've gotten themselves in to. 04:47:05
@telegram_1026262977:nil.imUNiqx
In reply to @corrinado:matrix.org
Lots to parse there == no simple answers and/or silver bullets. I'm lucky in the sense that I'm a consumer rather than a dev for any of the DEs. The systems I maintain/provision don't have a DE. Servers only. The human element to many of these issues seems (at times) to be more complicated than the technical problems.
I am not a direct GNOME consumer. But I use apps which are GTK based. It is really hard to avoid. So of the good apps are GTK based.

And KDE apps are a PITA dependency wise. Bizillion dependencies for a small app. That is why I depend GTK over QT. This got better while I used FreeBSD or other point releases. But when I have to use rolling releases like Arch, it feels like a ticking time bomb.
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13 Nov 2021
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14 Nov 2021
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15 Nov 2021
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